from what you've written of the quote.. I don't think it is saying that.

it reminds me of something in tenach that I read of in rambam's hilchot melachim.. something of kahanism infact..

that when Joshua went to conquer israel and the the enemy was there, he sent them letters warning them.. offering them that they either surrender or else.

Believe me.. this Pechter if chaim's story is true and i'm sure it is. She knew what she was doing was wrong.. and sher would have been warned - "what you're doing is wrong".. or something.. Even threatened i'm sure. If Rabbi Kahane said "I WANT HER OUT!!" You get the idea that this woman wasn't going to budge easily, she'd been told kindly.. And Chaim is going to put things on the line himself by going to war like that..

The tenach is full of rather extreme reactions.. commanded by G-d, or not condemned. Or, sometimes condemned for not going far enough!

I'm Chabad... I don't know how it sounds but I follow what my rebbe says. If my rebbe tells me not to listen to some Rabbi I wont. If he tells me not to go to a certain shul I wont. I may sound like a mindless robot maybe o_O
I also follow the Chabad beliefs regarding Israel and I know some Zionist greatly disagree with it.
Yes I would also follow what the beis din would say about pretty much every ruling too but I strongly disagree that Moshe would have been condemned for killing the Egyptian because he saved a man's life....a man from his same nation.

I don't know if it's because I follow the movement I do (as imperfect as I am and still trying to get over my TV addiction) but I see Kahanism as another movement. Maybe it's a flaw of mine as others take kahanism as much more than that.
But, saying how Kahanism is about doing rather extreme things (things that are questionable such as exposing a fellow Jew's body or whatever else) that might not seem very Torah-like then that's why I said it is not above Judaism. With the "Kahanism is somewhat about the ends justify the means - not any means, but some rather unrespectable or extreme means!"

Kahanism or not, the ends and means still need to be appropriate for a Jew to do. I personally could not support some extreme act is all I'm saying.

Then I don't see as anything justifying or not justifying Yekutiel....but he's a Jew so I say people get over it.

Lastly to the rest about what you wrote about Rabbi Kahane wanting C to head the JDL etc... I'm sorry to say but I still would like to see more old time JDLers to verify this about Chaim. I have stated that I believe the Kahane.org version more but I wasn't there so I give everyone the benefit of the doubt....but bring in more proof.
Right now, there are several people in Kahane.org who give similar versions and then there is Chaim's version. Am I to believe one man over several? If Chaim is right and if Rabbi Kahane DID in fact want C to head the JDL so badly and outst people etc.. then the truth should be known and Chaim given proper credit from all. Still, once again it's Chaim's word vs several others.
From people who have said and I quote:



(link provided privately) This is an example of what someone else who was in the JDL said. Others agree but there are two sides. All they are saying is to bring in more people who were in the JDL in the 70s and 80s who will prove them wrong and Chaim right. If Chaim is right, then the truth must be known, but we just need someone to verify what really happened.


I think it's one of those "agree to disagree" things.

Oh she was evil indeed. Very evil.
I think the quote was from Ezekiel though. I took it as this. Yes you have a moral responsibility. Regarding a wicked enemy who is going to be destroyed for their wickedness then you have a chance to save yourself. That way when your evil wicked enemy is destroyed you wont suffer the consequences as having their blood in your hand. I don't see it as literally warning them but actually a way to essentially just come out clean from it.
In Pechter's case she was so evil that nothing would have stopped her. But the quote gives a warning. Sure, go ahead and stop her BUT remember that it will come back to you.
That's why I think that it could have been dealt with in a less vile way. Yes she was evil but I think a better option would have beem to sent her the nude pics as a warning with an anonymous letter telling her to get out.
Also how were the pics. If they were given by her ex husband as some pics between husband and wife or because she was an immoral porno woman.

But anywho I'm still looking for the quote, it's going to really bother me if I can't find it. I need to pay MORE attention!

I'm foolish for not having pointed this out before....

If they did or didn't ban someone or delete something they finally did at the end.
I don't recall Yekutiel apologizing to Yacov privately or publicity either but I don't see Yacov holding any grudge against Yekutiel either and he was also a victim to the picture posting.

Also, the changes of the forum were not enough for Yacov to leave. I remember him talking to me before it happened. He did express his surprise at how the forum he created was being changed and not even one word was given to him. In this case, one could say that it's not really the changes that hurt but the lack of trust.
I remember him telling me he could get used to the changes eventually. Then OTHER things happened which have been discussed before. I just think that could have been handled differently. Also people must be made aware that Yacov NEVER tried to delete the forum, which is a lie someone there has said and unfortunately some gullible people have believed, which has caused a lot of hatred against him.

One last thing about the Kahane forum, while some old time JDLers in Kahane.org may be critical of Chaim, at the same time I have seen some defend his good qualities as well:

Quotes from members of the Kahane forum who are critical of JTF:

The following has some heavy criticism of Yekutiel.. It's not things that I need to repeat..
and I think it's all backed up. Infact, i've criticised the JTF forum with more descriptive words. Though Yekutiel deserves worse criticism

I can see that chaim can be easily motivated by anger.. just listening to the way he speaks.
(and truth is, it's not such a terrible thing as long as its directed against evil, and 99% of it is)

Further criticism is that his appearance isn't ideal for the head of a defence organization either.. And perhaps he lacks people skills . But that doesn't make him a bad person.

Since you mention the criticism that rabbi kahane allegedly made of Chaim.. And I did say he could have criticised anybody.. since I doubt that anybody had the talent and qualities to lead the JDL to rabbi kahane's satisfaction.

And as I said.. it's not hard to criticise yekutiel relative to chaim. So one must be fair.

Chaim does have great knowledge of tenach, he is very intelligent - has a very quick mind, great recall, and analysis.. I've seen people quote a verse from somewhere obscure in tenach to ask him a question, and Chaim recalls the entire context!!!

Just judging by what I have seen.

Yekutiel is a doer of dog training, but he is not intelligent, he doesn't speak well, I never saw Torah from him and I recall one time he actually opposed a reasonable torah discussion thinking it was bad[1]. He has shown an instance where he didn't give a damn when jews are endangered.. He can't defend himself from a criticism.. Chaim has the pride and principles to defend his actions.. Furthermore, Yekutiel couldn't even delegate properly to competent moderators running a forum, so i'm sure he can't run an organization well, and he lacks insight.

[1] The case there was where somebody said that rabbi nachman kahane, stated at times, where he disagreed with his brother Rabbi Meir Kahane, and the person that wrote that said that Yekutiel would know. This is an interesting torah subject, since rabbi nachman is a big scholar.. highly respected even in the charedi world. And believe me, they don't like zionists.. so he must be a really great scholar. I asked Yekutiel.. what rabbi nachman stated his differences were, Yekutiel avoided the question, later admitted that he didn't remember, and thought that the purpose of the question could only be to cause strife on his forum. Contrast that to Chaim who made a video on the differences between Rav Kook and Rav Kahane, gave credit to both of them as tzaddikim, and he said where we he thinks Rav Kook was wrong.
Note- in that thread.. I think that might have been the one where I was banned.. Now this is not a personal vendetta against Yekutiel. I criticised him over the picture incident, and that was before I was banned. It was a criticism to him, for him to reply. And he couldn't defend himself,. he didn't even try, and banned me. Totally unlike Chaim who takes a criticism seriously and responds..
Now, since I criticised him over the picture incident before , it can't be said that I have some personal vendetta against Yekutiel. And i'm not exactly a JTF stooge either..

Really, over the picture incident.. I am so disguested with Yekutiel. earlier when I wrote "yekutiel or chaim", I felt bad to Chaim putting the 2 in the same sentence.. Yekutiel is junk compared to chaim.. for the reasons I mentioned.

And if rabbi kahane trusted baruch marzel, and marzel betrayed Chaim. It was only the respect and loyalty that chaim has to rabbi kahane that chaim trusted Marzel. Look at what those on that forum said against chaim when most of them are not old timers at all. You really trust them to interpret a man like Kahane? Jimmy Sullivan was an old timer.. he was with Chaim and Kahane..

Chaim wasn't as known.. He was very young when he did his JDL activity and then he went to prison for it. If you listen to rabbi kahane and you listen to Chaim.. you can see how close chaim was.. His story of what rabbi kahane told him after he through the marbles down.. He carried a bomb in the JDL's name.. on a mission that rabbi kahane no doubt agreed with. Can you imagine what that meant to rabbi kahane!!!!!!!!!
It's obvious he was very close to him. Do you think he just puts the picture of rabbi kahane up for the show? He knew him well.. he worked for him, any basic analysis of him shows he is more loyal to rabbi kahane than anybody imaginable.. He led him from the age of 14.
His message is totally kahanist.. Some anti-kahanist wrote that Chaim was JDL Leader, it's obviously not made up.

I can see that you have that kahane.org forum with a bunch of people that were against chaim from the start for no reason.. other than perahps being anti-gentile and jealous..
I trust what I see..

Even if it is true that rabbi kahane said chaim is motivated by anger.. I can see how somebody could say that . But then I see look at Yekutiel!!!!!!!! I would rather somebody with strong principles, like Chaim. Than somebody that is both too unintelligent and too complacent when jews are in danger.

Look how he didn't do a damn thing when everybody on his forum was insulting Chaim..
When they weren't giving good reasons..
And look how nice chaim was about it , just saying he doesn't know why Yekutiel allows this on his forum.
Was it because yekutiel wanted a free forum.. ?
Now we know that it's obviously not.. As Kahane said, it's a question of whose ox is being gored. He doesn't mind banning people when he doesn't like what they say.
Chaim would never have allowed those attacks on yekutiel that yekutiel allowed on him, including writing JDL history excluding him. And he didn't take it lying down for ever, he responded.. He's a kahanist, what do you expect..

regarding forums toning down..

indeed JTF has also toned down..the things you described.. like goyim cursing out jews.. The K word is basically banned.

it does have some serious problems though.. but none related to that.. And nothing against yekutiel.. Yekutiel is essentially a nobody to JTF..

As Kahane said to Chaim.. when Chaim talked to him about problems with Irv Rubin , kahane said, people like that are dandruff, with people like that ,you wash them off.
Looking at how Yekutiel has behaved not just to chaim.. but certainly from Chaim's perspective.. he has to be treated as dundruff. Except he didn't stick in the first place.

JTF is functioning without even mentioning that person.

You have quotes that show All of a sudden members are saying ot leave JTF alone.. look at before the pornography attack though!! And remember that attack was not a response to insults against chaim.. It was a very fairly done thing.. while there was a threat to JTFers.

It would be nice but we need MORE people to verify what Chaim is saying. Is all.
Just bring in more people who were there at the time. The person who wrote that about Chaim WAS there. He gives detalied accounts, detailed names. Talking about Jay Cohen before and after working with CBP, talking about many other things as well.. I have no doubt that he is also an old time JDLer as are others. Their names are notable and yet CBP....?

Just bring in more people to verify if what you're saying about Chaim and the Rabbi are 100%. Other than that I can't just accept one man's version over several who do admit the good things about Chaim but dissagree with him about others.

From people saying this: (not from Kahane.org but from another place where people were also there at the time)





This is just other people's opinions. I WAS in JTF once and I DID believe in the JTF version. But what made me uncomfortable was so many people telling their side and not one agrees with Chaim's side. Surely, I thought, there is more to the story than being said. For now, I am more apt to believe the kahane.org version but I agreee that I might be wrong. And if I am I would LOVE to know and make a proper public apology. But how can I know when it's one man's word vs others.


Regarding Yekutiel, only Gd knows if its ok to hate him or not. I don't, he's a fellow Jew.

Anywho he seems pretty good in this INTERVIEW for IsraelNationalNews http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4T-WVD3P6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4T-WVD3P6w
This joke and unintelligent man is actually on Israeli media.
Sure not everyone has the same qualities. I myself am very forgetful. I can't remember quotes, I can't hold a deep religious conversation but I have other qualities. So what if Chaim is the most eloquent speaker or super intelligent. If it a competition over who is better or who has better qualities? One can argue that he has hateful views. Calling fellow Jews the K word, calling for Jews to be "killed" making racial "king kong" jokes etc...
When we bring in personal qualities, any good or bad quality is scrutinized.

I find good qualities in Yekutiel and good qualities in Chaim.

Some other videos of this "unintelligent" "junk" leader has done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msFt1lFDILI

He seems like a good speaker in this vid too and an active activist.

And in this video this so called incompetent leader received many praises for his leadership work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF1dJcgHH74#

In conclusion, once again lets just refrain from certain words. Unless they are in quotes meaning what someone else has said.
Like this quote:
From CBP:

those are interesting quotes.. independent of kahane.org

but look Yehudit..
compare that quote to this fact

http://kahane.org/order_video.htm
"
"Rabbi Meir Kahane on Morton Downey Jr. Show with the late Arab leader M.T. Mehidi." - $ 25
Watch an action packed show with a lively audience. Mordy Levy of the JDO also verbally attacks Kahane on this show.
"

So you see.. this shmorgal, assuming you got the context right. He confused Chaim with that scumbag Mordechai Levy.

And this shmorgal wasn't even from kahane.org! I actually would have trusted him more than a kahane.org stooge!


And you mention israeli media, chaim was also interviewed on israel national radio, by malkah and tamar..

truth is that israel national radio isn't that big anymore, since it was taken off the air and is only an online thing.


The fact I speak of are largely things we've seen of both characters ourselves..

I would rely on that.. and common sense..

Right before he went to prison he did an action for Kahane. In his name, to Kahane's credit. He can't have fallen out with kahane after that.. So common sense tells me that he is legit.
OK, so even if it's true that rabbi kahane said he was angry.. As I said, I think Yekutiel has worse faults..

I can see that Chaim hasn't made many friends.. and even that person that wasn't from kahane.org could not be trusted.. People that have spoken so badly against chaim (with just insults not arguments) really aren't the kind of people that can be trusted for truth..

The question is where do we go from here... the truth is Chaim's doing his thing very successfully.. amazingly well considering he is sitting in america. He is having a bigger impact on people in israel than yekutiel is having in israel when he's in israel!
I don't hold that against Yekutiel.. a person does their best. My criticism is against his character.. some of which i've seen for myself.. and is on the record on his forum.

Imagine relying on somebody like ChaimFan about Yekutiel, because he was there.. Imagine if all these JTFers were there in the old days..
They could have all sorts of venom against Yekutiel that was blown out of proportion..

I'm sure the real old timers loved the old JDL and figure it's over and don't hang around on forums. So don't expect them to pop up.

I agree it would be good to see some old timers.. if chaim did programs interviewing some. He would be able to contact them. He is busy though.. and we have no direct line to Chaim.
And really.. he shouldn't just do programs to counter idiots at kahane.org
But they could be really interesting interviews..

I might check the interview.. it's good if he can speak.

The quotes were recent. People are just tired of the drama and told the person to leave it alone. To get over it like everyone should.
So what about them? They are STILL critical of JTF and CBP but they have always admitted he did courageous things in the past. They just disagree with his version of history.

What we need is a once and for all account of what really happened. And unbiased version to put an end to "did he, didn't he"
etc. Right now to me, I just trust the more numerous Kahane.org version but that can change.

However this right hand man, this trusted man who according to the examples you give was so close to the Rabbi that shared so many private conversations and then Rebbetzin Kahane's cold and distant "I heard of him". She didn't say it in an "I don't know tone" but in an almost angry-ish tone almost. That did it for me and other people who were in JTF as I have spoken to them about them. They said the same thing.

that quote from shmoogar was about mordechai levy, not chaim! Or mixed the two up..

shows how the mind of the person is so twisted to have just hated chaim so much that he twisted him in his head to look like mordechai levy!

so the only relevant quote is from kahane.org person that rabbi kahane allegedly said he was motivated by anger.

Regarding the interview..
In that same interview, rebbetzin kahane didn't have any memories to speak of regarding rabbi kahane!!! I thought that was odd.. She obviously has a bad memory.
And Chaim spoke of doing some serious things against our enemies.. like beating up an arab whose gang beat up jews.. Things too violent to tell her about.

Rabbi Kahane had rare moments with his family and i'm sure he was the regular father.. seeing her and his kids.. Though often not at home.. 'cos in prison.

There's no way she would remember Chaim 'cos she couldn't remember any memories of life married to rabbi kahane enough to recall them!
As I said.. Just look at the book.. full of FBI records and letters. No memories. Just records.

And the question asked her about a bombing or attack.. she may not even know if it's OK to say she remembers.. and I doubt she would.

rabbi kahane moved to israel in the 70s!! He wanted binyamin to grow up in israel to speak hebrew well. Chaim was very young.. and by the time he led the JDL- in the 80s, Rabbi Kahane was in israel.. It's likely he never mentioned her, and she wouldn't have known him.

Even when I was in JTF I felt that CBP did the same thing against other Jews.

Come to think of it, something happened in the place with Schmorgel...He might have actually attempted to quote someone talking about "who was levin or levi" but apparently the post was removed so now all you have is him saying that about either Levi or CBP. But thank you for clearing that up.
His second post, however, directly does talk about CBP. I am going to make an account there and ask this person more about his time there and more about what he says CBP accused the Rabbi about.

I'm also talking to others "who were there" it's time for people to get to the bottom of it and say what's true or not. I do admit though that for many reasons I really just don't believe that CBP was actually that close to the Rabbi. It was one of those things that made me stop posting in the forum and actually made me wrestle with quiting many times, only staying there for a friend until I finally could no longer take it. I honestly don't believe CBP anymore.

Lastly while you say that CBP is very successful....what's going to happen in the future? Another reason I left. Will he still be very successful in the next 40 years? What will happen to JTF in 40-50 years from now. I know people whom if you ask they say "we'll be a mass movement by then" how nice but have they "will be a mass movement" for how long?
My thought are several things, popularity isn't everything, it comes and goes, and in the scheme of things sometimes we look at things online and they seem so big. Honestly, I don't think they will be the driving force that will change Israel.
It may help but to be honest, I don't think JTF will be THEE thing that will save us all. Neither will kahane.org or Revava.
And gaining a very strong following amongst the youth is good but dangerous nonetheless, youth sometimes being more immature and emotional on a psychological level. Then you open yourself to the responsibility of guiding these kids, sometimes angry parents and then the worst part,some kids grow out of it. May Gd bless them in what they do and guide that leader and forum to be wise.

There are so many people making a difference and so many people who have a massive following, so many successful people
I'm aware of good things and good for them. But I'm realistic. Also, back to the punishment things...I do believe Gd will bless a righteous movement but will not let an unrighteous one succeed. Only Gd knows if he will bless them.

But we don't know that person. He seems NOT to be interested in Kahanism at all. It seems he was there at the time because he says he remembers. He's also critical of the Rabbi. But he does say he remembers CBP criticizing the Rabbi. I wouldn't make assumptions that he's "twisted" and has hate for CBP. The problem was not that his person is a twisted hater but that actually, he quoted someone whose post is not there any more. That's the most logical thing.

Also, I think Rebbetzin Kahane does remember certain people, CBP not one? Specially being so close to the Rabbi. Naturally the Rabbi did not tell her everything but I mean you'd think he would at least tell her and/or Binyamin about the most trusted chairman.
Some of us think it odd is all.
Funny thing though is that another ex member of JTF and I (NOT yacov) were talking about Rebbetzin Kahane's response and he thought it was really strange too. We spoke about a response similar to what you posted.
But anywho we don't know what's going on in the Rebbetzin's mind so to say she might not remember? I don't know.
We just think the reply was odd.
From a psychological standpoint one would argue that the most logical human nature when you don't remember something is answer in a tone that signifies a question. Like "I heard of him?" kind of with a question mark sound in the middle and a higher tone on the ending of "heard". That is what people who study humans would say and anyone else who heard her. She, instead, answered very sternly and cold. Far different from someone who just doesn't remember. I'm going to conduct an experiment actually and have people repeat "I heard of him" in different tones....an angry tone, and "i don't remember tone" and see if what I'm saying is accurate.

I would be interested in knowing more about this and am desperate to have an old time JDLer give me a much needed answer.


Well if I am wrong, I want to know so that I can change and at least apologize for my doubt. I do give room to say that I could be very wrong. Until then, I think for now I should get some rest.
It's been extremely interesting and I appreciate your great patience in this. Differences or not, you are truly a great and intelligent man. (And a very patient one ~_~)

Thank you!

I agree that both kahane.org and jtf.org are not going to really change things much..

even rabbi kahane ultimately failed by his standards.. he just spread an idea.. which didn't and isn't taking hold..
(though understanding things from his view.. He was STRONGLY aware that Hitler had started out as a man with an idea.. so he was aware of how great or dangerous an idea can be, and how things can change the world. He was following historical precedent, lessons of history. I don't think it's working though)

I think that Israel can potentially be saved through the trend at the moment.. non zionist religious jews having LOADS of children.. the state will become religious run, Who knows what will happen then.. but it's the next big change that is most likely to happen. Apparently Rabbi kahane said he'd rather a state run by religious anti zionists,than a state run by secular zionists. I hope they'll be willing to fight.. And G-d should look more fondly on israel.. if it gets more religious..
It may be a completely different scenario by then..

Another scenario is israel gives away all the land they are willing to give, through unilateral withdrawals. The arabs see they have all they can get, and go to war, and lose. And Israel fights hard and they flee. And hopefully israel will have the sense to annex, transfer arabs and done.

I think these young jews that Chaim is influencing, should push rabbi kahane's last idea

Revolution or referendum. We can't have a revolution , we don't have rabbi kahane or anybody near him. But we could have a referendum.. There was a vote and 50+% of people voted for transfer of arabs.

A more palatable option than ethnic transfer.. is is transfer of those that want to destroy israel..

Israel is SO strong that it can conduct some kind of ridiculous survey asking arabs to be loyal to Israel - the jewish state. Have an israeli flag on the paper and a star of David. A few respond, they can gather into a small group and be protected. The rest can be transferred, that will get rid of 95% of arabs!

I'm not sure about the tone.. Didn't the caller ask about a bombing?! I could understand if she was defensive.. particularly given that she clearly has a bad memory she wouldn't be confident(I read her vol 1, as I said), a safe answer is NO! You are right, it is strange.. but other things there are strange as mentioned. You are right to be a bit suspicious.. nothing wrong with critical thinking.. Chaim could and should really clear this up.

Remember though.. Chaim could have mentioned the articles about him, but it took Archie to do it!! You could have been suspicious before those articles were posted. Chaim isn't helping himself.. to show he is legit when he could have. Fortunately somebody else posted -something- pretty substantial. It would be no suprise to me if there were old timers.. It would be nice if he interviewed them.. for the sake of an interesting interview.

good night.. and thanks for the compliments! But this discussion hasn't proven whether I am patient or not, because talking to you is a pleasure.

I recall looking at the articles before that person showed them. But anywho CBP's contributions and self sacrifice for the Jewish people truly are courageous. Not many people would we willing to risk prison for what they stand for. And people shouldn't forget either. Differences or not. Maybe some issues should be addressed so there would not be so much division. In my case (and in the case of others) I left because of it but if it's addressed it may stop others from leaving in the future. I also hear people in Kahane,org demand that once and for all people could stop with the nonsense and just have an official unbiased version. Once we get it and we are confident its the most correct version then people can stop with some of the bickering, I hope. I just hope for the better. From all forums to the direction in Israel may it all get better.

Also you bring in a good point. Could Rebbetzins Kahane's tone mean that she does remember but wont talk about it? Maybe, but at the same time the tone might have been different. Example: If she new exactly who CBP is when they asked her... the "I've heard of him" might have been more confident in tone with an emphasis on the "I've" The "I've heard" would be stronger compared to the rest of the sentence. So that's why I would conduct a minor experiment to some people not involved to say "I've heard of him" in different tones:

"I've heard of him" in a reserved 'I don't want to talk about it tone'
"I've heard of him" in an 'I do remember but that's it. (The more confident tone I mentioned above)
"I've heard of him" in an almost cold and distant tone
"I've heard of him" in an 'I really don't remember anything tone'

Oh well I'll ask a few people who have nothing to do with this, and get the average result then maybe it would shed some light.
Overall, I once again have the guilt feeling, I really don't hate anyone, I don't want people to think that. And like I said I admit that there is room for mistakes so I could be very wrong after all. If I am then I am VERY sorry.

Hey if you put up with me then you are patient.

none of this would helps the South Africa issue though..